Spot Play Royalty AKA HorseSPA

[AwolAtHTR]

Fri 9 Feb 2007

hi HTR folks,

The offer by Cliff to sell his spot plays and Ken's Spot Play contest has generated an idea: Spot Play Royalties.

So, let me describe the business for HorseSPA, Horse Spot Play Action (or Associates?)

The concept is simple: Spot Play author receives a royalty as a percent of the income generated by the play.

The implementation issues:

1. Author submits spot play
2. HorseSPA validates play.
3. Play is bet using a budget created by Author, HorseSPA, and 'investors'
---investors would be folks who only want to bet and not be bothered by details!
---budgets would be defined by Author's money, HorseSPA money, or some of both?

4. Play is stopped when the recent betting diverges from expected historical return
---aah, yes, this is the tricky part of betting spot plays: When to stop
---in other words, we expect that some plays will change and become losers!

5. Trust the HorseSPA company to pay the royalties.

Well, there are many, MANY, problems to be solved for each of these issues but the goal of rewarding a sucessful spot play author could be achieved with this business model.

--------------------------
This would be a full time business for more than one person but I think it would be a fun way to make money betting the horses. Using Cliff as the first customer, the business would have a good start. The HTR Spot Play contest plays would be the second group of customers. After the second group, HorseSPA would consider accepting other authors.

When I think about the time necessary for HorseSPA, I resolved that I am not willing to take this detour from my goal of betting own methods.

So, I realized that the Spot play business is not for me and do not plan to bid on the Cliff spot plays. However, maybe Cliff could get more value for his work by accepting a bid for cash AND royalities.

A test of this concept will be the HTR Spot Play contest authors. I plan to validate the posted spot plays. So, when I bet the useable spot plays, how much royalty should I pay the author?

well, now, I can get back to my research for today


duane

[km]

Duane, interesting idea but users are not allowed to publicly sell the results of their data analysis per our Equibase contract - unless they want to cut Equibase in on the royalties.

"Downloaded data and the resulting information is for personal use only" - Equibase holds all rights to the information, the output and any re-distribution or sales. That includes anything you get out of HTR including spot plays. You just can't sell it, not even if it is a selection service based on the information.

Is Cliff's auction in violation of Equibase rules?
Technically maybe, but he did everything right by making this a one time thing and keeping it entirely discreet between he and the buyer.

[njcurveball]

Well this is a head scratcher to me.

AND I am trying to say this "politically correct". However, since I am not a politician I may fail miserably.

I think depending on the query, it may well be fair game to sell. I did not see the DRF going after the system sellers of past for putting together the old recipes of 24 days ago and won and not a maiden race, etc.

They gathered all of that data, by pen, by pencil, by slide rule, by land, by sea. :-)

Now we have downloaded data. Is this where the line was drawn? If Joe System Seller uses 100 racing forms and writes a book, he is fine.

So how bout if he downloads the DRF files?

OK, now it gets stickier. HTR has ratings that are not available anywhere else. Does this make them untouchable for an author?

My thinking on the Equibase language was to prevent someone from downloading the data and then basically printing a program they could sell. I think Henry came up with the most amazing report I have seen. I would gladly buy that instead of the program, so Equibase wants to make sure someone does not use their data to come up with a better product.

So when guys like Nunamaker and Mazur write books, do they pay equibase or DRF a royalty on the data?

If anything I think the equibase data is public information, but ratings and other things that need proprietary formulae should be where the line is drawn.

In simple terms, if Cliff wants to sell a play where the horse finished 1st and was within 2 lengths at 10-1 or better, that is using public knowledge.

But if he wants to sell a play where the horse is #1 HTR and #1 Ped, then those figures are dependant on someones formulas and then perhaps a deal is in order to use it.

It is definitely a very interesting topic for a generation where computers are now going to have Hard Drives measures in Terrabytes!

I remember 10 years ago or so, Racecom was promoting their HUGE database and it was something like 12mb!

Oh well I guess all I am trying to say is that you cannot sell the "fish", but you can sell the information where to catch them.

Jim

[km]

NJ and Duane, i'll forward this thread to Ron at HDW and let him respond since he knows more about the Equibase data legalities than me.

[Cliff]

Regarding Duane's post, for the record:

This was NEVER offered or suggested by me......to ANYONE. I am in no way involved in anything like this and do not care to be involved in anything similar.

Thank you.

[dehere]

Gee, I can see Ken having more to say about use of HTR ratings than Equibase would. That algorithm is sure a bunch more important than the raw data me thinks.

[AwolAtHTR]

Regarding Duane's post, for the record:

This was NEVER offered or suggested by me......to ANYONE. I am in no way involved in anything like this and do not care to be involved in anything similar.

Thank you.

Sun 11 Feb 2007

Cliff,

Please accept my apology.

Apparently you feel that my HorseSPA idea was in some way supported or connected to you. So, '..for the record..', Duane did NOT consult or talk with Cliff about any of the content of the HorseSPA idea.

One of my goals was to possibly help Cliff get more value from his research. The fact that Cliff uncovered so many spot plays is absolutely amazing and is a credit to his creativity. Well, creativity is often recorded as a patent and then royalties collected by selling the patent. Of course, horse results can not be patented but, I feel, the author should receive more than a token payment by auctioning the results to the highest bidder.

The Equibase rights is one of the legal issues which would have been worked out before HorseSPA went beyond Duane's fantasy. Later, I will post more about the legal issue.

May I repeat: Cliff, Please accept my apology for creating the illusion that you were some way involved with my preparing the proposal for HorseSPA.

with regrets,

duane

[Cliff]

No Prob, Duane.

Thank you for the classy apology.

[tomcat]

Are you suggesting that all these book authors use computers? In reality, some don't. Some
use research created by others. Some of these guys are talented writers.....not handicappers.
Some are good handicappers.....like Ken. They all sound alike, but they are not.
How many of the "big" names show up at the contests? Not too many.

[Ron Tiller]

The legalities from Equibase's perspetive are way out of my pay grade. Have you read the terms of use link on Equibase's own site:

http://www.equibase.com/about/terms.cfm

Oh Vey! My guess is, Equibase is taking the strongest possible position regarding data use, then making both legal decisions (is the legal principle defensible in court?), evidential decisions (is it provable in court?) and pragmatic decisions (is it worth the effort?) concerning the implementation of that policy.

I do know that using data acquired from Equibase, through Equibase, HDW or any other Value Added Reseller, to make and sell (or even give away) a handicapping report (like the old Stardust sheets or trainer statistics) is not in accordance with Equibase's or HDW's terms of use. Nor with BRIS's. To my nonlegal unofficial mind, this would definitely constitute selling an analysis of the Equibase data. This is NOT an official evlauation of this proposal though - I am no expert on these matters.

Now folks, don't shoot the piano player (ME!), don't ply me with what ifs, don't start on a rampage about how great and free Hong Kong data is, don't vent to me about data NAZIs (no DATA for YOU), don't start quoting me copyright law, don't read me a dissertaion on fair use law, don't tell me how data should be free, don't read me the riot act about how keeping a tight control on data depresses the industry, don't yell at me for being a part of the Equine-Industrial Complex...Well, you get the picture.

As I recall, Jim Bayle used to have investors in his longshot spot plays, the difference being that Jim Bayle defined all the plays, bet them all, and dispersed the money to the investors. And word is, he made money.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[njcurveball]

Word is Ron will be writing speeches for Hilary Clinton and is getting his practice here. ;-)

As someone who works with data for my day job, it is a fuzzy area. Just typing on the Internet is a maze of legalities.

And then there is the question of which pieces of data are "public" knowledge. Anyone watching a race can know the fractional and final times. They can know the finish positions and rounded final odds. Trainer, Jockey, Class, Owner, weight, morning line, also can be gathered freely and publicly.

There are trainers now with web-sites where they post the past performances of their runners. Others where you can get the past performances for all of the races they are entered.

Personally, I cannot see how anyone can copyright public data. What if an owner obtains some kind of trademark for his horses name? Will Equibase then have to pay him when they print it? Perhaps ridiculous, but I remember a certain coach going so far as to claim rights to the word "threepeat".

This is really not to start an argument, but just to point out that they write the restrictions tighter than normal common sense. By the letter of the law we really cannot show each other our computer screens at a tourney. Heck, we may even be violating it if we tell each other why we picked a horse.

And then there is the "fishy" language of

You agree that you will not download information acquired hereunder with the intent to database it for future use.

Ok, I will go back to driving below the speed limit, wearing my seat belt, and never showing anyone else movies I have bought. ;-)

Jim

[Ron Tiller]

Just in case anybody might misinterpret my remarks, if you use the downloaded data to make a bet, and win, there is a rumor that you are required to submit documentation to Equibase and pay them a royalty. If you lose, you're on your own. In addition to the standard IRS takeout for signers, there is rumor that Equibase will start automatically taking out THEIR percentage at the same time...Well, maybe its not THAT bad yet (and I admit, I am the one who started the rumor).

Regarding building databases for personal use that you build from HTR exports or comma delimited charts, Equibase is aware of this functionality in HTR and all the other products we support that database data. In fact, Equibase sells their own comma delimited products through TrackMaster, the point of which is to upload into a database. The databasing issue on their web site Terms Of Use is referring to free data downloaded from their site. Obviously, the comma delimited data they sell is going into SOME database.

The issue is building free databases from free data (see the 'Don't shoot the piano player' rant in my previous post if this displeases you). Since everybody here is paying HDW, Ken and Equibase for the data, Equibase is happy, Ken is happy, and most of HDW is happy (I tend to be grumpy even when receiving money). What is NOT OK is downloading the data from us, exporting the data to a database and selling Billy Joe Bob's Super Handicapping Report (TM) or selling Bill and Ted's Excellent Par Times or Joe Don Ray's Book of Hot Trainer Statistics.

Even giving away free stuff is touchy (see the 'Don't shoot the piano player' rant in my previous post if this displeases you). Stuff that Ken gives away at the seminar, or stuff in his monthly newsletter, has been given the big Okee Dokee by Equibase. It all makes for happy customers, happy customers make for long customers, long customers make for money, which makes Equibase, Ken, and most of HDW happy (I'm still grumpy).

Regarding speech writing for Hillary, the only speech I would ever write for her would be: "I hereby direct all my electoral college electors to vote for the Libertarian Party Candidate, or Ron Paul, if such candidate is a ding dong." But that is a bit off topic.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[ERNIE LOGSDON]

Ron: thanks for your reply(s)
one thing that seems to be missing from all replies is "permission granted" from the copyright holder. every book that I can think of has the disclaimer that permission to use ???? has been granted by copyright holder (most of the time that was DRF )
The Stradust was once required to stop handing out their report until "permission" could be obtained (granted ).

IMO : get permission, there would be no problem.

as for being grumpy....they don't(can't ) pay you enough for 7 day weeks 365day years and never missing a days data for how many years now.....thanks (no grumpy reply required)<E>

[Ron Tiller]

Ernie,

The Stardust actually had a contract with Equibase, in order to distribute the free Stardust sheet. Free was not an issue. They were distributing handicapping data originating from Equibase and HDW, processed through Ken's Stardust program. I can't go into any more details than that, but it was NOT just a matter of asking permission and getting a form letter Okee Dokee, like it was (and is?) getting permission to reprint some charts or PPs in a handicapping book, like Pace Makes the Race or Modern Pace Handicapping. Equibase has standard contracts and fees for things like this and Rob Walker, then in charge at the Stardust, agreed to the terms, in order to attract customers.

I apologize for going a little off topic here, but there is a connection to the original thread. Namely, distibuting data originating from HDW, and hence Equibase, whether for free or for a charge, is monitored and controlled by Equibase. We can be told to shut off somebody's account if Equibase has reason to believe that somebody is violating the terms of use (see the 'Don't shoot the piano player' rant in my previous post if this displeases you). The legal stuff gets started, if at all, only if the party in question does not stop and decides to take a stand.

Of course, the idea that Equibase or anybody else would sue you for emailing a pick to a friend or showing your friend your HTR screen at the racebook is as preposterous as the idea that the government would make it illegal to play poker on the internet or bake a cookie with trans fatty oil - preposterous!

Ron Tiller
HDW

[DanG]

Of course, the idea that Equibase or anybody else would sue you for emailing a pick to a friend or showing your friend your HTR screen at the racebook is as preposterous as the idea that the government would make it illegal to play poker on the internet or bake a cookie with trans fatty oil - preposterous!

Ron Tiller
HDW
LOL!!! :D

You have to love it. The vocabulary of a syndicated columnist is overseeing our data.

Only in America… (Or, Massa Italy ;) )

[Navrah]

Clarification on an earlier poster: "As I recall, Jim Bayle used to have investors in his longshot spot plays, the difference being that Jim Bayle defined all the plays, bet them all, and dispersed the money to the investors. And word is, he made money."

I was a client of Jim Bayle and yes we made money. When ESB shut us out most of us left as he became protective of his selections fearing they'd get into too many peoples hands as he only offered them to 20 people. Originally he offered just his selections and never did (or would) "DEFINE" them. Let me be really clear: did not define them just offered the picks. After the ESB espisode Jim offered to open accounts for investors and making the wagers for them. I did not pursue this with him as he'd only offer the selections after the fact - again paranoid about sharing (effecting the odds/sharing with non-subscribors). This didn't go to well and Jim faded away until recently (this and the old fig story).

Jim did get in trouble for being a DRF downloader but it was never explained to his clients why? He never offered us any insight into his numerous secretive spot plays but only offered the selections. Was it this reason - maybe? It's been a long time now but I seem to recall he got in trouble for doing the queries for people for a fee - not the selections.

Not to be negative but it's clearly all about politics and double standards. It's really that simple.

[AwolAtHTR]

Sun 11 Feb 2007

The Equibase rights is one of the legal issues which would have been worked out before HorseSPA went beyond Duane's fantasy. Later, I will post more about the legal issue.

duane

Wed 14 Feb 2007

If I may quote myself, then you see that I was aware of the LEGAL issue. In fact, I know of an HTR customer who was denied use of HTR data because he crossed the TOS boundary. The project did NOT even generate any income!! I always contented that it was a good example of the Equibase lawyers justifying their retainer to enforce an unreasonable condition. So, if any HTR user has an idea that is near the TOS boundary, ASK, before you take action on your idea.

I agree with what Ernie said: '..IMO : get permission, there would be no problem....'

The Equibase/HDW TOS does have the clause '..written permission..'

I plan to submit the HorseSPA business concept to Equibase, so that, IF, I reconsider this risky business again, then the legal issue will have been answered. Oh, this task will be behind the back burner of priorities but someday I will ask them!!

So that we may get back to our game of finding Spot plays for the HTR contest and other interesting research instead of reading an ongoing dialogue about an issue that is beyond our control:

I request that this thread be closed.

duane

PS: Ron, thank you for your postings. I wish I had thought about this request sooner!!