End of HTR Contests?

[km]

Rick asked me if we were going to run our (free) Breeders Cup contest this year.
I said "no", i'll send him the prize money instead.

Frankly, all our contests, big and small, are drawing fewer and fewer players, the same loyal group each time. Perhaps that mirrors the "recycling" that we see nationwide with tournaments, same core group of people pretty much over and over swapping each others money. But i digress, back to our little corner of the world....

Does it seem incredible to you that every bi-annual contest we run, someione will firmly say to me "you state it is a free contest - yet why do i have to send $25 to Rick?" They want to argue the legality of it, holding on their principals for $25 donation, so we have to let them in. Some of these people are not even subscribers to HTR. Imagine someone so selfish and such an a---hole that would hold out 25 pittance from a good man like Rick who does all the work to ensure a quality event.

And there was the guy that threatened to turn me into the IRS.

Not only do we have to put up with that, we get complaints during the contests from players that would be analogous to someone arguing "the refs costs us the football game" after they lost 48-3 to Ohio State.

MikeDee and Donnie are the most important voices regarding the direction of this bbs. They have both suggested to me in the past that we restrict content to HTR subscribers - such as the newsletter archives, software update section, and even certain aspects of the discussion board. I'm seriously considering doing that with an annual tournament for subscribers only during the late summer that would award a Orleans World Series $1000 entry as the top prize. Maybe i can work something out with the Coast. A tourney really worth shooting for and great way for HTR subscribers to put it all on the line with each other, and only they would see each other's selections.

Your opinions and comments are welcome - thanks to all of you that participated each time in our contests; we feel you deserve the best we can produce - even it is just once per year.

[OPM]

I'm pretty sure your contest will be taken care of in the future but can't give too much details until things are worked out. Hopefully, we can get a sponsor that will open it only to HTR members and pay Rick for his work but more in the next couple of weeks.

[Donnie]

The real sad part here Ken is the non-understanding SOBs who don't realize all the work Rick puts in to make the contests what they are. Imagine, 11 days straight of being there in the background, basicly from 11:30 AM until 10:00 PM....11 days straight!! I always marvel at the amount of slack he takes in every contest as well. Maybe some outsiders see HTR as an extension of a huge conglommerate. They don't understand this is all one man's business who maintains the integrity we should all emulate. This has brought you a core of like people. When you open up the contest, you open it up to the riff-raff that is always looking for a freebie. But you already know that!

As to my previous suggestions of proprietary content, you still are the only person I know of in this business whose door is always open and you throw it all out there for all to see! You let the numbers speak for themselves. You don't back down from what your goals are. That is to provide the best possible tools for the handicapper to use. I think your tagline under the logo on the homepage says it all....."Serving the serious handicapper since 1993". Maybe one reason I don't like your "opening up" your new ideas and approaches for free is because when we get down into those trenches, it is the riff-raff that is being educated as well and for free at that. They are my competition. But yet I am sure that a lot of lurkers have become customers, and your business model has served you well in the past. Far be it for me to tell you how to run your business.

Knowing the caliber of handicappers that HTR has amassed, I would willingly kick in $200 to play in your afore mentioned post concerning a WSH berth for HTR 'cappers only. It would be very much like the SD contest Gallo puts on.....60-75 handicappers, but some of the toughest competitors in the country!! I believe if you wanna get real good at something, you have to face some stiff competition. You can't run against maidens your whole life.

All I know is that I appreciate everything you do for your subscribers. And I appreciate EVERYTHING Rick does not only during one of our tournaments, but also everyday keeping this site up and humming!! Job well done!!!

-Donnie

[km]

Great post Donnie - thanks.

[MikeDee]

I think a annual HTR only contest for the big one would be great. I like the idea.

Maybe you should try some different formats for the public contests. How about using the Orleans format? A 3 day event with $200 WP wagers and the same cap structure they use.

How about charging the fee but giving non HTR players the htr race files for 3 days only. This way they are buying something, the 3 days worth of files, so it gets around the free issue and may get the non htr guys to try HTR.

[tommyc]

What the hell's Gupta talking about ? Hope he has two ace's up his sleeve ! :)

Rick Bush is the cement that keeps this bbs together and worth a whole lot more than we contribute to him. To hell with anybody that bitches about that......

I think we ought to "close off" all our stuff except the ability to view our postings on the bbs. Let 'em pay and join HTR if they want to be a part of it.

I'd like to see maybe two annual HTR contests for 1 or 2 hundred per entry, maybe shorten the duration to 3-4-5 days.

And I'd quit using the word "free" for ANYTHING, everything cost's something and only a..holes complain and get involved with the semantics of it while the good guys ( like Ken ) just roll their eyes and bear it.

" Every fool can find faults that wise men can't remedy...."

tommyc

[Mark]

I have foregone most contests for lack of time and concentration on favorites,which don't fit the contest scenario. As a supporter of HTR, Ken, Rick and Ron, I'll kick myself in the ass and get in the game.

All boards that I've participated in have gone to hell in a handbasket, excepting this one. I would love to see the board go private for the reasons Donnie mentioned and as a block against the foolish and ignorant complaints thrown at Ken and Rick.

It's a golden autumn day in Massachusetts, wishing the same to all.

[tomcat]

The openess of Ken and collegiality of the members has made HTR what it is today. I agree with what everyone says. Outsiders don't really understand what it is all about.
In a nice criticism of Ken, he tries too hard to be all things to all people. Having worked in the public arena most of my life, I can tell you it is impossible. "The masses are asses" is probably a true statement.

A closed door arena may encourage more poeple to join and keep out the ones not desired.

We do this because it is fun!

[ronnie h]

i would like to see the contest open to htr only and have the same format as the contest you are shooting for. i would like to keep the coast contest. get in top 35 or 50 and you get in ws. as for the freebies let them pay


ronnie

[Gambler]

I too agreed with what Donnie said.
Actually i would like to see more contest. I really enjoy the contests. Hopefully there will be some ideas out of these posts that will help us have more contests.
I dont know why we dont have more people enter them. Maybe having them run over a holliday weekend is a negative because if you get company it is difficult to stay focused. Also maybe some players dont want others to know what horses they played. Knowing what horses they played may help someone figure out their system.
Maybe if the 11 days were weekend days it would help the working man.

As for Rick I cant say enough about him. He does an excellent job with the contests. Without his help with many things I would be in big trouble.

Someone who tries to help others must always put up with criticism. The more you help the more criticism you are likely to receive. Also most of us who really like what you do dont say thanks often enough. THANKS KEN, RICK, DONNIE & MIKE

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THOSE WHO DONT PLAY WHY DONT YOU PLAY?

[DanG]

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THOSE WHO DONT PLAY WHY DONT YOU PLAY?

As one who “does not play contests” I’ll respond…

I have never played contests in horse racing of any kind. This partially explains how I never heard of HTR while living in Vegas. I have a strong feeling that if I was a contest participant I would have subscribed to HTR many years ago.

My personal reasons are as follows… (In descending order of important's.)

3) I never looked at horse racing contests played over a short span of time as a game of skill.
2) I devote ¾’s of my waking life to horse racing. I simply do not have enough hours in the day to even handle my current work load.
1) The majority of my bets are with partnership. Without really asking them I can safely say they would not be pleased with me publishing picks pre-post.

I have no other reasons and to be honest…reading the HTR members accounts of contests I am a little jealous. The contests sound like a lot of fun and a great adrenaline rush when “we” are in contention. I find myself reading the accounts of Ken, Tommy C, Donnie etc…and get wrapped up in the outcome without a nickel invested.

On a personal note:

I find myself in a small way trying to promote Ken’s product whenever possible. When I see a thread on PA for example regarding HTR I find myself trying to respond in a positive light. Often the person will private message me asking for specifics. Sometimes I feel like that they want all the answers without applying any effort and certainly not dollar one:( .

HTR goes well beyond the information and support. At its pinnacle the Sartin group developed a powerful bond. This team work approach was revolutionary in horse racing and I feel the same “team” approach here without all the jealous in fighting that brought down the Sartin empire.

I was asked the other day…”Why do you tell people how great HTR is when you rely on it for an edge”. Again…being completely honest…I want / need HTR to succeed. HTR has now spoiled me to the point where I would truly regret if it did not exist.

As far as the charges of IRS ramifications and “why is there a fee”…It’s not even worth commenting on. It’s beyond ridiculous and if any paying members engaged in this they should be ashamed of themselves.:mad: Starting with and not stopping with Ken, these are men of integrity.

“Lurkers”…

Why buy the cow when the milk’s for free?

That’s a subject that is better left to long standing members and of course Ken and Rick. The marketing implications are obvious, but given human nature when you offer an inch… people often take a furlong.

[njcurveball]

Dan brings up many good thoughts in his post, as do many of the others before it. Who can pay attention to their own picks for over 12 hours? Rick does that for 60 entries! I was shocked the first time I played in a contest and saw him looking over posts almost the second after they were posted.

Ken don't let other people throw rocks in your path. Ignore them. You support and continually enhance a quality product. Remember the great line from Customer Service Presidents. For every person complaining there are five hundred satisfied. :D

Did you catch the movie Red Eye? Tell the people to fill out a comment card and....... (I won't spoil the movie for those who haven't seen it.)

Anyone that is approaching this game from an academic standpoint is in the minority. Most people want to do the least amount of work and gain the greatest reward.

Simulcasting does have one advantage. Now when people ask me "who do ya like?", I can answer "what track, what race?". Most do not even have a thought that would answer that simple question.

I like "playing" a thinking game against people that don't like to think. Bet the grey horse, or is it the gray horse? ;-)

I had one girl swear to me that the outrider's horse was the key and whoever came out with that horse she was betting on.

When they tell you there are No Easy Answers, you tell them there sure are. Many of the answers are very simple and very UN-profitable.

HTR doesn't cater to a flashy windows crowd. The program has a learning curve and most Users go way past that with their own studies. The robot is now to the point where it would be preferred over many early versions of database and query software.

Fortunately for us this is a dynamic game. We all know as sample size increases, ROI decreases.

I would suggest keeping a general forum open to the public. Make the others only available if you sign in.

As for Newsletters, I would suggest making the table of contents available publicly. To see the current and past newsletters, you have to be an active subscriber.

As for contests, I would prefer a survival type for this format. Something very similar to the Meadowlands where you have to post your picks by 7 pm and if your horse gets scratched you get the post time favorite.

They give you 3 picks and if you get at least one in the money you survive for the next day. Perhaps Ken or Rick could change the track each day. Make the contest 30 days or more if you like. It would save Rick a lot of work, only having to check at 7 pm and being able to post results when the card is complete.

Total dollars across the board would be for position, if more than one person survives.

Just my 2 cents. I will probably play in any future contests.

Jim

[JimG]

As a non-subsciber who played in the most recent HTR contest and others before it, I will miss playing in the contest if you decide to close out non-subscribers. I understand your decision and would just like to say I have enjoyed the contests. I also enjoyed meeting Ken Massa and Tommy Castillo in Las Vegas. My last thought on the subject is Rick Bush does a tremendous job scoring the contest and anyone who would want to participate but not want to give a donation to him for doing the work is an a$$

Jim

[njcurveball]

Jim G,

In my opinion you get "Grand Fathered" in if you have participated previously. But only if you haven't complained about it being "free". :D

Perhaps Ken could set up a BBS Member Account for non subscribers. Maybe something small like $20 to allow people to play in contests and read the forums?

Jim

[km]

thanks for all the input, for now we'll look forward to below, things can change though

= one major on-line contest to be held Labor Day weekend

= 4 day tournament

= improved prize structure including a World Series qualifier

= open to HTR members only who are willing to pay a fee to Rick in advance

= scoring similar to the actual event at the Orleans, but with more plays allowed

= all contest decisions are final with KM and Rick, but players will have input for rules ahead of time, so no one is confused by anything during the contest

= website for contest restricted to registered players with passwords (if we can work that out)

[njcurveball]

Sounds like an exciting contest Ken.

Thanks for all you do!
Jim

[MikeDee]

I like the format and the contest length should be fun.

[Gambler]

Sounds good to me.

[dehere]

Hi all - just back from a week in Argentina enjoying the Malbec and Asado - but now its time to get back into horseracing again. Its been about a month and a half break which, hopefully, is what I needed.

Anyway, the reason I didn't play in the HTR contest this late summer and would not be able to do a labor day related event in the future is simply because that is, IMHO, the best week end at the Spa and would not miss that time in Saratoga. Maybe my situation is unique but I wonder if the lack of players has more to do with the holiday week end than anything else.

I guess I like Ken's thoughts about the contest otherwise. A couple of "counter thoughts" though - both about the contest and the "openness" of the HTR board in general.

1) If the prize is a world series qualifier you elminate those HTR players who have already qualified for the world series do you not?

2) If the HTR board becomes too exclusive I'm afraid the flow of new subscribers might be adversely impacted. I doubt if I would have started with HTR if I hadn't had the opportunity to "lurk" for a bit on the board. I like the idea of certain aspects of the board being closed off, but would be disinclined to make too much of it exclusive to members.

Oh and by the way - best of luck this week end to Ken and others in the NHC Qualify monthly final.

[km]

Good to have you back Henry!

Our record contest participation took place during the Labor Day weekend a few years ago. Since then, contests held throughout the year have declined in players on this board, regardless of the date held. Same people basically playing every time.

But that's not unusual in the world of horse contests nowadays. While the number of bodies goes down, the hardcore players are buying more and more entries, creating the illusion that things are steady.

1) Prize would be transferable, winner could give to spouse, friend, etc. if already qualified. Cash award if all else fails.

2) Full discusson board open to HTR subscribers and lurkers could read. The contest would be restricted to subscribers.

[Val]

Ken

I try to participate in as many contests as my work/travel schedule allows. The attraction for me to HTR is the willingness of most everyone to share insights and experience. Rick is the best and puts in incredible time and effort to ensure accuracy and fairness.

It's too bad that there are always the spoilers who are driven to attack something good and ruin it for all.:mad:

I hope we will continue to have contests and that by incorporating some of the great suggestions already posted, we can continue to enjoy the benefit of our combined knowledge to make everyone's game better.

[Hat Trick]

Do you guys ever host a horse-racing web site capping contest? Maybe worth pursuing.

[km]

'Hat,

There are many state regulations and various laws governing contests, so I don't know all the ins and outs of doing something like the NHC On-line from the standpoint of liability or even logistics. That sure is a nifty format they have setup with NHC OnLine, with instant access and updates to the leaderboard and the ability to see everyone's picks. A+ grade for the tech part of it.

However, the decline in interest is curious with NHC OnLine. In this most recent tournament round, just 380 or so entries took part (600 spots were available). During none of the three weekly qualifying contests did they come even close to the quota of 200. Almost all the players have two entries, so it looks like there is less than 100 actual people left interested for a low fee contest that has the coveted NHC qualifiers. :confused:

[njcurveball]

Ken,

Correct me if I am wrong on any of what I write here. The way NHC works is that everyone is playing for ONLY the spots to Vegas. I have not read about prize money, is there any involved?

When you say 380, that would be round 1 entrants. They take 10% of those, so that 38 now go to Round 2. Of those 38, they give 3 or 4 spots to Vegas.

On the surface, if your main goal is Vegas than I guess it serves its purpose. But most of the other tourneys give out prize money as well. In a typical tourney of 200, there is a first prize $10,000 and up.

With the entry fee of $100 per and 380 entries, the NHC has taken in $38,000. They are giving 4 spots, plus hotel. I read the spot costs $3,000, so that $12,000. 3 nights in Vegas we will give $500, so that is another $2,000.

They take in $38,000 and pay out $14,000. No wonder people are not very interested.

Correct me or my Math in any of this.


thanks,
Jim

[km]

That's correct NJ, ZERO prize money, so you might have a good point in terms of risk vs. reward and the contest is not attractive to many. Especially if some of the early players have already blown quite a bit trying to qualify and got nothing back in minor awards to continue paying.

You did the math on the money, many people rightly turned off by contests that do not give back most of the entry fees.

The 380 is the total number of entries from the first three preliminary rounds. Top 10% of those participated in the finals = 38. They allowed 200 entries from each of the first three rounds, so a total of 600 could have participated. In the earlier editions, they filled it and thus 6 qualifiers were awarded among the 60 players in the final.

[Donnie]

I think there is also the thought of cutting your losses towards the end as well. I have played twice and still hold the "can-do" attitude. Had I been playing 3 times a month, @ $100 a pop times 2, well this late in the year I may be a little discouraged. I agree Ken...the technical side is sweet. It really is a well run online tourney. Jim, supposedly all that extra money is going towards prizes for the Finals. Hope they aren't using the NYRA as their accountants!:eek:

[njcurveball]

Another factor is that when you play at the different tracks, you not only compete for Prize Money, but you get free programs, forms, lunch, dinner, free gifts, and other prizes.

Back in the best days of Sports Haven, they gave out lunch and dinner and even had something there for breakfast. They also gave out free forms, programs, comped us for seats and gave out gifts. Shirts, totes, magazines, weekly charts, etc. All that was included in the $300 entry fee and they still paid back 100%! AND they gave out 4 spots to Vegas.

In later years, they cut it two spots and since they have went "live money", they give two to NHC and two to HPWS.

It is all about value. If you figure a spot in Vegas is worth $3,000 (AND IT IS), then you would like to win one for much less than that. If you play 2 entries, 3 times per month. You better get one of the Vegas spots in less than 6 months.

There are many free tournies on-line that give a spot without an entry fee. I would like to see the NHC Qualify show what they are doing with the "other half" of the money.

Jim

[MikeDee]

I for one do not like the format of "qualifying events". Just one contest and if you win, you win, not on to the next round.

[njcurveball]

You make a good point Mike.

Unless they pay prize money in every round. The worst thing they can do to participants is let them sit at the "big table" and still go home empty handed.

This is also the problem with "live money" tournies that allow people to go "all in".

It is basically choking the gold eggs out of your goose until there are none left. If you give your customers a "taste" they will come back. If you continually give them nothing, they will eventually go away, never to return.

The format of the NHC Qualify allows someone to pony up $600 a month, qualify for the finals, finish 5th (out of 400) and get nothing.

When I use to bowl regionals, they paid (1 in 3 minus 5). That means is that if you had 180 bowlers, they paid 55 spots. 1/3 of 180 = 60 - 5 = 55.

That is how they kept people coming back, giving them a taste.

Battling 400 people for 4 spots is hard enough. But to beat 395 of them and still not make a dime, well, that leaves a bad taste.

Jim

[OPM]

I think they got the message and will be doing this format for their Dec. contest.

[njcurveball]

What is the format OPM?

[OPM]

According to the e-mail I got from them, they cancelled all Nov tourney and will have single day tournaments on Sat/Sun in Dec. Format to be decided upon but most likely same 10 races ,w/p

[Steverr1]

Ken,

I can relate to your amazement at some of our fellow handicappers. For many years I have ran free services, handicapping tips, et al on the Web. I can’t begin to equate time, effort, and of course money I have invested towards giving back. Many people have come forward with praise, but there are always a few in the shadows who give nothing back but misery and complaints. These (I hope few) cause you wonder—why bother?

But I have learned that when those types come forward there are those who do appreciate the teachings, newsletters, and they uplift the project again. So, I don’t know Rick but I do know what he must offer. Tell me how much and where to send a gift for his work and I will. I don’t participate in the contests myself, but perhaps I can help for others.

Regards,

Steve Richardson
http://www.trackwinners.com

[Donnie]

Welcome to our little corner of the web, Steve! When you signed up the other day, I went out and checked out your site. Cool beans! I like your videos discussing the races. You seem to have a good core of people over there as well! That alone speaks volumes for you. Keep up the good work and I hope you'll share your experiences and knowledge over here as well....not that I won't be back to your site:rolleyes: !

[Steverr1]

Donnie,

Thanks a bunch. We did that video on the Fly but we will get better. You guys here work hard at giving information. I have lurked around for a year or so now and I am also a HTR user. I can't say enough about the poduct and the Newsletter is the BEST!

If I can help just let me know.

Steve

[Steverr1]

Yesterday 11-09-06..early in the AM I cranked up the software and performed my usual elimination procedure at Churchill. Then, as usual, I ran the races through your module of what was winning replacing any that I had eliminated. As you can see I gave precedence to what was winning, but because I had once eliminated them I carefully examined each of those types and decided that two of them did in fact deserve elimination. Soon I was down to a very manageable race card with some races 4 or less as contenders. I put the list aside because I had to go work on the video, which took longer than expected.

When I got back home I cranked up TVG, HTR, and a few other tools. Churchill had 6 minutes before the 9th. I hurriedly scanned the results and found what i was looking for-that all the exactas from the previous races were included in the small list of contenders I had worked on that morning. Churchill was down to 2 minutes so I had no time to attempt any further reductions so I looked at the tote board at the odds and saw that the 4 horses remaining from HTR filters all had pretty good odds so I decided to play:

$20 Exacta box 4-7-1-9 and $50 exacta 47/1479. Got the bets in just in time and watched a very contentious race finish 7/1. The first 10 minutes of arriving home was worth net $2585.00.

[DanG]

A big Tampa welcome Steve!!!

Nice score at CD and informative web site.

Steve…

We were born at the right time. 20+ years ago we would have had to bump into Ken at Los Alamitos or Arcadia. (Much the way Tom Brohamer and Ernie did at the inception of MPH & HTR) Now we wake up and tap into the finest handicapping minds in Kentucky and California all for 1/3rd the price of the equivalent racing forms. (With superior information)

It’s a GREAT time to be a horse player.

[km]

Thanks very much Steve, ditto on those comments from Donnie and Dan

Yes, we will be having a "Get Rick to Vegas" fund raiser next June or so, we'll be asking HTR users to Pay Pal him $25 each to pay his expenses to our Vegas seminar. Send him anything you want at that time. What a fantastic group of people we have on HTR, raised over $6000 for Rick after he was wiped out last year in Katrina disaster. We were much more efficient than the Fed Gov!