Handicapping Contest and Rebate

[OPM]

Well as I am sitting here in CA and thinking of ways to get a rebate legally a thought occurred to me(well, more than one thought)so here goes:

Structure a handicapping contest with no entry fees:
WP/EX format
Bankroll of $1000-10,000.
10 mandatory races/day over 2-3 days with 10 optional races a day.
$100 minimum-$1000(max of $1000-$10,000) minimum bet directly into the betting pool.
If you get 1000 players, minimum can be $100 bet(this is not a problem for online companies such as Youbet or TVG).
Thus, if you have 1000 players betting $100/race for 40 races, the handle will be $4,000,000. Track or Website will have a take of 15%(lower for Website) but at 15%, take would be $600,000. $500,000 of this can be used a prize money and $100,000 goes to track.
Obviously, this would take a while to get going but once it gets going, we can have a tournament every week like the World Poker Tour.
Now, with this much handle, it really limits the mandatory races to NY, KY, SCAl and South Florida but that's ok.
Best of all, everyone can make money as the players would keep the money they make and can also take home prize money.
What do you guys think? Ken, can we get the Orleans interested?

[Victor]

I think finding 1000 players who bet $4000 each over a three day period will be difficult. Where would the prize money come from? Who would be holding the money? Youbet would give their cut to the players? Why would they want to do that?

[OPM]

Victor:
Prize money would come from the handle. If you can't find 1000 players, then find 100 to start with and have a lower prize money. Youbet and or TVG would do this to gain customers and gain profit since they would be get to keep part of the increased handle. A Vegas casino would benefit by having more people come to their casino. Players would benefit because they don't have to put up and entry fee, get to keep all the money they win and get a chance for prize money.

[OPM]

Victor:
you will be shocked how many people out there are waiting for reputable places to take their action. When Thorograph set up their rebate shop with Magna, people came out of the woodwork to sign up it was incredible. I think there were over 400 people willing to sign up within 2 wks before it was shut down.

[Victor]

OPM,
I like the concept, but-- remember where we live, the U.S.A. What country has the most lawyers per capita? Same place!

[km]

OPM - every now and then there is a 'no fee' contest similar to what you describe. They are usually for high-end players with large bankrolls. The prize money is usually modest. Such a contest is happening at Del Mar on August 1st. $5000 buy-in, no entry fee, players must bet a certain minimum per race to remain in the contest. $25,000 is put up by the host. They expect only 50 players though. Victor is right, there is limited draw for such an event and they don't pull many players.

Most players figure = why not just bet the money on our own? The risk of losing the $5000 due to minimum bet rules in the contest outweighs the gain of anything but first prize. If you have $5000 bankroll, why not just put in action with a strong rebate and a solid set of spot plays from HTR and use a % of bank to avoid the risk inherent in a contest.

The Coast has been out of its league with money contests twice this year. Both were failed attempts and did not draw many players and the prize money sucked (under $10,000 for winner). The Coast "World Series" will test the notion of "if you offer a million - they will come", but it will be tough to get 1000 bodies there. Reno Hilton still uses the money format successfully, but it has been modified so you can't use the accumulated bank. In almost all cases in an 'open' money contest, the result is a fluke when one guy puts it all on a cold trifecta or one-way exacta late in the day and scores big. That's the reality and you have to play it that way - but it is not that appealing to most.

[OPM]

That's disappointing to hear that the prize money is so low for the DMR contest. Obviously, the host is making the most money here since they will gain by the increased handle. It's quite disturbing that almost every week, the World Poker Tour can get at least 200 people to plunk down $10,000 and we can't get 200 handicappers once a year. Now, I beleive that the on line sites can get this thing off the ground. I think most people would be willing to bet $20/race for 40 races. With the online site, you can probably get 1000. The handle would be about $800,000 and you can have about $90,000 in take that will be availble for prizes. I also think that it is very difficult to get people in one place but online might be the savior and maybe 4-5 times a year you can have a contest at one of the tracks or Vegas.
In regards to $5,000 bankroll and betting select rebate, as you know, rebates are not legal in CA yet and I am just wasting money betting with Youbet and I am too uneasy about sending this sum to Pinnacle. I guess I'll just keep looking for strong plays.
By the way, as you know I have been using HTR since August and have had some bombs recently at CD(that's why I have a bankroll now!!!). My eyes have been opened wide to pace handicapping with resounding success. Keep up the good work and I hope to see you guys soon. If you ever get up to the Bay Area, please let me know.

[km]

Thanks OPM - good to hear you hit winged a couple of big ones lately.

I agree that On-Line contests are the way to go for fast money tourneys. YOUBET has held several and they appear to be pretty popular. Obviously you have to have an account with them and live in a State where it is legal - but the acction is good in those - although the prize money is shallow. Methink they should take your advice and try a contest with 20 x $50 bets or something and see what happens. Top prize needs to be $10,000 or more though. I get involved everytime and have won a few minor prizes - they defiinetely stimulated me to bet more during the contest.

Poker is big now because it has personality tied to it. Not to mention we can see the cards and the pulse of the decision making. Horse racing has loads of interesting people, but does it have the risk and instant consequences feel to it that poker offers? I did not find the TVG telecast of the last NTRA tourney worth watching at all - boooorring, no action, no risk, no intensity -- they covered it as fluff piece instead of a serious competition.

How many NTRA suits does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
- They're not sure yet, they need a few more months to discuss, plan, form some committees and write detailed reports before proceeding.

[timh]

One reason why I think the NTRA tournament coverage on TVG was not very exciting was because of the lack of an up-to-date scoreboard. For some reason both years that Bally's have held it the scoreboard has been pitiful. (Actually it was no better at the MGM).
I don't understand why this is so hard for them; Keeneland's contests have twice the number of entrants and their scoreboard is updated minutes after each race is official.
The only way it will ever be close to the Poker tournaments, (excitementwise for viewers), which is what the NTRA wants,would be if one could see during the running of races who the leading players have selected. With the software out there this should not be hard.
Tim

[ronnie h]

I think the ntra is over rated i was in it las year and very disspointed this year i only in contest where they have at least top three and at least 5.000 to winner go to vegas rember the paying entry what makes it happen. the orleans contest is the no #1 to me always like to see tommy c in chair 1 or2. see you in oct tommy. lol

[tommyc]

ronnie:

I'll be there !

But won't you be at the Seminar in July ?

tommyc