Will You Participate NHC 2012?

[km]

According to the email from NTRA - Keith Chamblin, the purse structure this time was favored by some and dissed by many others. Apparently some people prefer a million dollar de facto 'winner take all', but i have never heard from a single person with that opinion.

I notice he doesn't mention the $500,000 take out of the prize fund that went to the NTRA, and exactly how it was spent.:confused:

BUT I'm worn out talking about the NHC for now. Regardless of the situation, my budget for the NHC has always been around $800 per year. That gets me into the dance about once every 4 years. So the cost/benefit is acceptable because it is great time and excellent exposure and networking for HTR.

As far as putting any energy into the Tour or attending live NHC tournaments within driving range (FPX, Surfside DMR, HOL), I pass on that completely. It's exhausting to me to play in qualifiers to the qualifying - qualifier so i can qualify in the final qualifier :eek: And little or no prize money to sustain the effort and a total lack of transparency by the NTRA as to how much money is being skimmed. I did buy the $50 NHC raffle ticket so you'll see my blind dog Basky in the standings on those free contests again. He can pick em.

I read that 'dehere' and 'OPM' are also soured on this process and will not be joining in. It should be alarming to the NHC that people like us, who certainly have the financial means to participate, would choose to sit it out. Let's hear everyone's opinion, this bbs is only sounding board available, so feel free to comment on your plans for 2012.

[Mike Brown]

Ken, pretty much agree with your negative assessment of the NHC tourney. Its a shame because the concept has so much potential. I would rather devote my resources to the Coast Casino tourneys and
other tourneys that treat us like respected customers and not pawns for the NTRA money makers. I believe there will be a severe drop (NHC) in participation in 2012. I appreciate and respect the effort of Mike Mayo to improve the NHC, but wish he would tell the NHC where to go and support more Orleans Tourneys and not less. I would much rather support and play in an Orleans Tourney than the NHC any day of the week !

Mike

[Gambler]

I joined the tour last year. For some reason i could only participate in in one of their contests. After that they would no longer accept my password etc. I emailed them many time about my problem. I never got an email back. So i wont join this year.

[mandol7]

I joined it yesterday, but will only participate in the free online contests (lotteries).

[del_dog]

never did won't had no interest always thought the whole rat race was kind of silly - so my "vote" shouldn't count.

Appreciate the efforts to promote the game.

[GBPHX]

I joined last year and played in one live tournament and two of the free online. The free tournaments are a waste of time. I have decided to pass on the NHC this next year.

Gordon

[MVM]

Hate to see the actual 2-day NHC event lumped into the same category as the preliminary events, but I guess they are pretty much joined at the hip.

From my experience(s), the NHC was a very enjoyable event, and from the glowing reviews on this board, it sounds like this year was no exception.

Unfortunately, the now intimately-linked UM Tour, and the qualifying process in general have become farcical, and severely detract from the appeal of the destination event.


So in answering the original question as stated, yes, I would love to participate in the NHC.

Unfortunately I cannot in good conscience contribute financially to the self-serving, short-sighted UM Tour that is a prerequisite for participation.

[ebbnflow52]

I played in a handful of tournaments early last year. Then I decided it was wiser for me to just keep the entry fee money and use it in my bankroll for the daily grind. Plus most of the race type choices offered didn't match up well with my handicapping strengths.

So it's a "no" for me this year.

[elkurzhal]

I've joined the tour and would love to be back at Ti next year. Really tough to go out with a 478th place finish...

I don't like the prize breakdown, and am disappointed in Keith's response, as to my knowledge the only people who liked the structure were Waldrop and the winner. I was witness to a couple heated exchanges between some well known players and NTRA staff letting them know the same. One of which, at a point Keith had completely lost his composure, looked more like a couple high school boys fighting over a cheerleader than two people who both want the same thing, to make the NHC better. Eventually cooler heads prevailed. Though I'm still not sure that both want the same thing...

I will play in the qualifiers that offer decent value. The purse divided by entries is about $3300, the trip is worth something. Pretty much any contest collecting more than $4000 per seat in entry fees will be off limits for me.

That leaves plenty of good value contests. The TI contest the Sunday after NHC returned all entries as prize money and gave away 3 spots. Many of the DRF contest have no entry free, Xpress bet's beat the host is another good one. If I can't get a seat though one of them I don't deserve to be there anyway.

[JimG]

I've been on the tour since its inception and qualified twice over the years. I do not plan on participating this year. Mike Brown's comments above pretty much sum up how I feel about the NHC at this point.

Jim

[carl rasak]

Brownie is right on...
As a 4 time nhc qualifier I'm passing on any NHC qualifying opportunities that do not offer
cash prizes to top finishers...After all the talk of better purse distribution at the TI this year..
I have not read anything about total purse projection or payment structure for placings
for the 2013 TI handicapping fest....
Most all qualifying sites have trained us to WAIT till much later in the year to qualify for the big dance by having last minute tourneys for a whole bunch of seats...and waiting only increses ones chance to earn a seat because there are a lot of fish chasing the "tour" points crown and have already
qualified..hence a lower finish can be rewarded with a seat.
As a committed tournament player, I relish the fact that tournament play has flourished....
I support all efforts to have the online tournament sites and in person qualifying sites to have a master plan. This needs to include schedules that are non conflicting, formats that are uniform,
and cash back to playes that put up thier dollars chasing seats. The only way this will be accomplished is for the NTRA to bring this together...unfortunatly the lust for this concept will only be realized when there is a downturn in thier business, As long as there is no transparency demanded
by the players...there will be no change.....my tour card will get a ton of rest till august...
Handicap on fellow players...

[OPM]

Ditto for me

[aratrace]

Thanks for this thread, Ken.

Many players are not feeling the love of the NHC game. One recently described it as; "now I understand how the stud feels as he's being gelded".

The lack of transparency (NTRA) is having a great polarizing effect amongst the players. The lack of purse in approximately 80% of the Qualifiers quickly sucks the capital from Contest players of modest means and they are the first to reduce their participation. As the NHC contest year moves forward the pinch is felt by those who have the means to risk and lose maybe 5k before backing away. The participation fall-off starts with the online contests coming up 50 or so short of filling....like the drip of a leaky tap. The drip becomes a trickle, then a torrent, at which time those with deep pockets will reach the "pain point" (absence of dead money) where they begin to question the logic of feeding on each other. It's sometimes referred to as the law of diminishing return.

I had my "DUH" moment after blowing through about 15k last year chasing the NHC, only to find out late in the year that much of it went to the NTRA (not the NHC Final). Finding out that this "HOLD" has been the case since the inception of NHCQualify.com did not make it any easier to digest.

My moment of clarity was simple...."DUH", I could have saved all the time, effort, travel expenses and bought 15 entries into the Horse Players World Series at the Orleans. Or, I could have bought multiple entries into their April, July and October contests and 10 entries into the HPWS for my 15k. All four contests offer very good PURSES.

"DUH" moment two was remembering that Coast/Boyd properties pay back "ALL" entry fees as well as funding the daily prizes. NO HOLD - FULL TRANSPARENCY!

My desire to compete in the Breeders Cup and NHC Final contest is strong, but I will have extreme difficulty putting up the money to play for a 50% possible return in NHC qualifier contests where there is "NO PURSE" or "ALL" the entry fees don't go to the Final.

The "NO-HOLD Feeder" contests run by HorseplayerQualify.com and HorseTourneys.com is a boon to those with a smaller bankroll or those not willing to fund the NTRA directly. If you win an entry into a qualifier from a "Feeder" you can at least take solace in the fact that majority of the "NTRA HOLD" is other peoples money.

Regards,
Edward J. De'Ath

[SPIKE]

I agree with Ed about HPQ and HT. I love their feeder contests and they both do an awesome job. They are the players player site. I also agree about the Boyd contests and think they deserve more support and kudos. Like Ed said, they give all the entry fees back and kick in daily $$$ to boot, not to mention all the food and booze we can consume. I would like to see their contest not be so top heavy. My dear friend Mike Harrington finished 2nd in the HPWS last year and got $65k and the winner got 6x that amount. Basically the same payout structure as the NHC.

I think if the wonderful people running the contest were approached with a payout structure that the players agree upon, they might be willing to adjust the payout structure. I think they truly care about the players and are more flexible then the NTRA.

[Donnie]

Have to agree with everything you state, Ed. I used to enjoy travelling around the Midwest, within reason. When there is very little purse money on the line, I am not that interested. I was trying to figure out a way to get to FG for their qualifier at the end of the year. Got my ticket punched for the WS and the "pressure" to qualify for the NHC all but disappeared. Very glad I did not travel since low enrollment = no prize money. Would have been rather upset to travel all that way and the only prize was a qualification.

I am in no hurry to join the NTRA this year. I will probably be sitting out their lottery next weekend. This from a guy who qualified that way previously.

A lot of validitity to saving the money and buying multiple entries next year if I don't qualify for the WS at the Orleans before the end of the year.

[gregk]

I will eventually but my main focus is the HPWS and leaving for Vegas over the weekend.
Looks like I will have some opportunities with their lottery style tournaments, if we can believe them and I really enjoy the free Delmar, Public Handicapper and Mth contests during the year which have offered a seat in the past.
Hats off to HPWS as I remember when NHC held their contest in direct conflict with The Orleans.
I wonder how long the NHC will stay at TI?

[dehere]

I have already posted in other forums so I'll simply repeat here that I won't be competing in any contests or joining the tour until there is some assurance by the NTRA that prize distribution will not be nearly as top heavy as it was this year. A lot of people are offering complaints about the lack of payout in many online contests and I agree that that is a problem. However, my real concern is with the limited chances to actually cash for anything of significance at the main event in January.

[creighton]

I totally agree with Ken and all other players who thought the prize money was short around 515,000
where the hell did that money go. winner take all stinks, second was a joke in comparance to winners
share. Dave got screwed big time and we all know it. I was always in ntra's corner pushing it to all my friends and race track exec's to have tournaments, rest assure that won't be happening any more.
I think keith and rest of the ntra officials owe all members a detailed explanation on what happened to all the money after the 1,400,000 in prize money was spent. What was there take? What kind of expenses did they rack up? How much for advertising? Had i known before what the prize money structure was before i flew to las vegas to play in last chance winning my entry i would have pocketed the 1,ooo and been content. Instead i get to treasure island find out how mad players were
with everybody corralling michele and asking some demanding answers to all the questions on how top heavy the prize money was. hell second place was the same as it was when Ken Massa came in second. If i ever play again these questions need to be answered. I my self will try to concentrate on
the ORLEAN'S HSW from now on. So just maybe we can get there prize money to a real 2,000,000 pot. Why not pay it like a horse earns 60-20- 11-5 -4

your friend creighton

[njcurveball]

Despite all the criticism I joined again. My main reason is to have a chance to qualify for Vegas. My main reason for joining now was to play in the contest tomorrow.

I have many ideas on how contests "should" run, but ultimately my choice is either to play by the current rules or sit out. If we all sit out, there will be no more contests. So in a small way I feel my participation is at least giving hope there will be better rules in the future.

Good luck to all and hope to see in Vegas next year!

Jim

[dehere]

One would think that a change to a more fair distribution of prize money would come if many people simply refused to play the game until changes were made. Besides, should you join the "freebie" tomorrow you still have to beat the blind dog and that is no easy feat..

[njcurveball]

should you join the "freebie" tomorrow you still have to beat the blind dog and that is no easy feat..

Oh man, now you are gonna keep me up all night worrying! :eek:

So there is a question here, does the blind dog use a seeing eye man to go places? :D

[km]

thanks Henry (dehere) for the vote of confidence with Basky ;)

For those who don't know, my blind 14yr dog "BASKY08", beat thousands of players including virtually everyone reading this post in one of the free NTRA lottos last year. NJC- Jim, maybe you'd care to make a side dinner wager against my K-9 picker in the Saturday NHC raffle - a juicy grilled chicken breast is Basky's favorite dish. (If you win, come to Vegas and I'll pay happily pay off the bet for him with a chance to take you to dinner, it would be a pleasure).

The old pug is tired tonight though, so I punched in #1 in each leg. If Basky sleeps late, we may end up on the rail in every race.

The discussion about the NHC and NTRA has totally lost its allure. Closing this thread feels like I'm the final runner in a marathon. Exhausted of it.